Matteo Scagnol and Sandy Attia, more than just highly skilled and competent architects, are citizens of the world. A broad and branched formation has allowed both of them to transport many architectura suggestions and images, without stopping at tradition or context, and working with the right measure of freedom and freshness.
1. Let us start at the beginning: would you like to tell us about your training and what were the most significant episodes?
Matteo Scagnol: Sandy and I have different origins. I am Italian, I studied in Venice and worked in Naples for two years with Francesco Venezia, with whom I graduated. I later won a scholarship that took me to Harvard University to complete a post-professional master’s degree. Sandy, instead, comes from an Egyptian and American background; she spent her childhood in Kuwait and then returned to the USA, where she completed a bachelor’s degree at the University of Virginia, before continuing her studies in architecture at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Design in 2000, which is where we met on the first day of the courses. And from there it was like a great love! After my studies, I didn’t want to stay in the USA, because I didn’t like the system, even though there was great potential. It was very complicated for young architects, so I immediately decided to go back to Italy, dragging Sandy with me first to Venice and then to Rome, because I had won an additional scholarship to the American Academy of Rome. I consider this to be the most important formative moment, because we lived together for the first time in a big city and in a spectacular place. In Rome we understood that our identity was to be “citizens of every place”; this is what allowed us to live in South Tyrol while at the same time, constantly looking outwards, “living” beyond, but being physically here. Our development, each far from the other, me with my classic Venetian, IUAV brand, with important teachers such as Manfredo Tafuri, Massimo Cacciari, Gino Valle and Vittorio Gregotti, and Sandy, whilst still classic, was American. We came together in Rome, united in our unique desire to relate to the classical world, far away in time, with the disenchantment of distant ideas that have been repeated in continuous cycles. We define ourselves as “water repellent” because we adapt to the conditions. We understand them, but we are not absorbed by them, neither by the culture nor by the “identity” of the places in which we live. In a concrete sense, this is to say that although many of our colleagues talk about the importance of context, of tradition and about the use of local materials, we are totally the opposite! We aim to do things in freedom, without paranoia or self-imposed constraints.
Sandy Attia: I have lived in vastly different countries and places; the word “context” for me means building your own present, with freedom and without precise boundaries.

2. From your profile we read that you have a “heterogeneous” approach to the architectural project. Would you like to briefly illustrate how this way of working translates into the practical act?
Sandy Attia: The heterogeneous approach is correct from a certain point of view, given that our works have always had many differences between them. But we always try to start from the same cornerstones, sometimes even a little banal. Basically, our works appear heterogeneous, because they are very “curious” and free, we follow with amnesia a thread of coherence, which in the end has a series of similarities.
Matteo Scagnol: We have always maintained a simple fundamental concept, which can be described through Nietzsche’s words or through our trip to California some time ago. We will tell you both versions. Nietzsche says that the human aspect is both Dionysian (passion and impetus) and Apollonian (precision, regularity and geometry); our works are dissimilar to each other’s, but have this “game” as their limit where every now and then one aspect prevails rather than the other, as in our human relationship, where every now and then he prevails and every now and then I do. At the base there is a logical, ethical and human content. When we made this trip by car from Los Angeles to Oregon, crossing the Big Sur, we saw trees that on one side, protected from the wind, grew beautiful and perfect, whilst those on the sea side were all bent, even if the seed that gave them life (the idea …) was the same, only that it was dependent upon the conditions in which it settled and grew. In our buildings there are almost always three themes: the first is related to the embrace, where we translate everything into forms that resemble “Cs”, to try to embrace a condition; the other theme has to do with gravity, with which we like to play, therefore suspended volumes, overhangs, rotations; the last aspect instead, which for me is not yet clear, is linked to our “laziness” … There are many talented contemporary architects, specialised in details, innovative materials, who manage to create very complicated buildings; instead we are rather in love with all that architecture, linked more than anything else to the 70s, where there was a certain laissez faire, “that’s okay”, without this current craze where by now architecture has become nothing but a super cool detail, often losing the spatial aspect, which in our opinion is what matters. Laziness also means living without preciousness, which is not necessary; what is needed, more than anything else, is a place that offers empathy.
3. Do you find that the competition system is still a valid tool for carrying out the profession of architect?
Matteo Scagnol: When we started working it worked, now it’s madness… Let me explain better. As long as the competition was for the architect, mainly aimed at obtaining high architectural quality, without needing a myriad of consultants, documents, reports and requirements, then it made sense, now it doesn’t. We had the good fortune to win the first two competitions in 2004, two years after we had opened the studio, and they were quite significant competitions, which now you could only do if you met very stringent requirements. We won without experience, without requirements, and then we managed to build them! Now there are many more constraints, you have to organise the design team, fill in all the paperwork, write reports on the CAMs and on the technological systems that could very well be carried out later, also because almost all the projects entered into the competition follow the same line on these points, the choice is not determined by the architectural project.
Sandy Attia: If there hadn’t been competitions, we would never have become architects. We have built almost all our works, even private ones, through the competition system. Let’s say that the competition, if you take it as a sort of training and a form of stimulus to look, first of all, at yourself, and you get rid of the feeling of having to do “the best thing”, your best project, your best performance, it becomes a simple tutorial. Now, however, the ratings are much more quantitative than qualitative, linked to silly scores. If the contests continue like this, it will no longer make sense to participate in them. While if the competition is raised to a cultural phenomenon, that is in addition to participating, you present it to the residents, then it assumes a social value. To make it clear that more than one answer can be given, but at the same time that they must choose, that there must be shared responsibility for the choice, as an act of qualified people who represent a community.


4. Here is a question that we will not ask only you but also other studios: why is it possible to more easily find high-quality architectural firms in the areas of Northern Italy, which border Austria and Switzerland, and in particular in the territory of Trentino Alto-Adige, than the rest in the country?
Matteo Scagnol: There are two fundamental aspects. As a first aspect, there has been for a long period a political determination of the province to use economic resources (which have been noteworthy for many years) to demonstrate the efficiency of the local political apparatus, using public funds efficiently, and the best way to demonstrate this is through architecture: building schools, hospitals, etc., and it has been a great opportunity for local architects. Furthermore, the Autonomous Province of Bolzano has taken a clear position, marking the cultural proximity not to Italy, but to Austria and Germany, using and choosing for its buildings an architectural language very close to that of these states, which speaks of efficiency, precision, solidity, etc. Secondly, the Province has given the go ahead to the use of the competition as a good practice, which is followed by private clients who have grasped the value of architecture as a vehicle for defining their identity. A short circuit was created, which made it clear that investing money in architecture gives a huge return on image, which mixed with the Nordic world’s passion for building to perfection, love for one’s home, for precision , for details, has produced an enormous stimulus in all the architects who have grasped this impetus towards architecture. This does not mean that South Tyrol is further ahead culturally or intellectually, even if it there are many very beautiful and well-made projects in its territory. We have always had a disruptive relationship with the common denominator South Tyrol; our projects may not be beautiful, but they are an intellectual “slap in the face”, because within us we carry the freedom we talked about before, which allows us not to have to dwell on just the detail.
5. Very often your buildings are characterised by a geometric experimentation, which translates into rather sculptural volumes. Where does this approach to the project come from?
Sandy Attia: We really like working with models, because it allows us to use our hands … Consequently, using this type of approach, it is easier for projects to turn out with more sculptural volumes and shapes. It is hugely different to working with a digital computer model.
Matteo Scagnol: Usually we sit at a table and start outlining some simple sketches that then transition into the physical model, so we can immediately find the right proportions. This leads us to manage the project in a sculptural way. Our architecture, in terms of visual aspect, are never too complex. And then modelling is the only moment of joy and freedom in our work, we really have fun!
6. Would you like to tell us about your experience linked to last year’s Biennale, “ArcipelagoItalia”?
Sandy Attia: From the point of view of experience, discovering the Marche and confronting that reality, the theme of the post-earthquake, which we then carried on to Princeton last year as visiting professors, bringing all the boys to Camerino, was incredible. A world has opened up that has had a design effect that was disruptive, yet beautiful, in the way in which we operated, how we produced the models, worked with the photographers, which we continued to do afterwards. It is not new to work with photography; however, it is a way to deepen certain themes thanks to the dialogue between the parties.
Matteo Scagnol: In regard to the participating in the actual event, it is a pity that to bring out the different Italian realities, everything was put under a single undefined hat in which it was no longer comprehensible who had made the various projects . This is an Italian attitude, perhaps linked to envy, jealousy. Until a few years ago the university held weight in the event, now it seems to be resting on its laurels. The formula adopted for the Biennale hasn’t been able to rely on the quality of a just a few figures and present few but compelling projects: it turns into a cauldron in which you have too many works presented and it becomes impossible to understand the logical thread. It would make more sense to decide from year to year, “this province has four very good architects”, as almost all the pavilions of the participating countries do; four architects are chosen, another four two years later, and so on, giving pride and also helping specific actualities. If there is this continuous sludge, no idea can ever emerge, it becomes a continuous almanac of the most recent achievements. The qualities and abilities of individuals are not exalted. This is unfortunately the cultural level of Italy today: we live on great stories with a myriad of mini protagonists. We are happy to have participated in the Italian Pavilion, proud, but at the same time it is a bittersweet experience due to having remained in the shadows. There is still this perverse idea that the fundamental part is the curator, he is the one who has to emerge. And it’s not just Cucinella, it’s a problem for anyone who enters the Biennial system managed by the Ministry. It is the complicated and over-controlled mechanism. I would be happier if the curator did as you did, choose five figures and return solely to architecture: ask yourself what architects do on this specific theme? A clear and simple statement. Is there anything to learn or not? The problem arises when the content editor is more important.


Sandy Attia: The problem is that the curator himself is asked for quantity and not quality, the more projects there are, the more we believe there is quality. This is not so.
7. Let’s go back to architecture. We would like to talk about your work now. Can you tell us about the Kostner house?
Matteo Scagnol: One of the few residences that we have not built on competition. The artist Kostner had organised a competition asking three architects for proposals, but they didn’t like them. How did the project come about? There is an anecdote that is based on a postcard; the project developed very quickly: the theme of the two volumes that takes up the tradition, of the two small houses side by side, and the plan of the Fischer house in Kahn, transposition of a planimetric concept of another world. The basic themes are three: the embrace, gravity and duality. We package the project and instead of calling Hubert to present it, we print a postcard with a photomontage that makes us understand and not understand. We send the postcard and say, “If you wish to continue with us, we’ll come; but at that point, we will continue.” (Laughs – editor’s note). And you understand that curiosity is the greatest means of persuasion; this thing of showing / not showing intrigued him so much that he convinced himself; it was a game, also linked to the expressive method that he himself has used in some works. Being an architect also means being a psychologist and having a solid understanding of all the dynamics. When you win a contest, the idea is to not go back. It’s not that you’re arguing with the client and putting the idea back into play. If a client starts from scratch to make a house, you chop and change it many times. In this case, the client has chosen, and if he has made that choice, that is it. And as an architect you are greatly advantaged in the progress. Having understood that Kostner as an artist is an extraordinarily complex character, playing the advantage was the real motivation of the postcard. “Is it okay with you? If it’s okay, we will continue on this path, otherwise you won’t see what we’ve done.” And so, it was a bit of an edict. Not having the opportunity to enter a contest, you present an image and say this is the idea. Either you accept it and I come to you, or you don’t, and I won’t show you the whole world behind it. It is curiosity that stimulated the decision. Of course, the architecture in question also stems from the ability of the artist to be a provocateur. We give him credit that we had to create a work for a provocateur. As an artist, he mocks tourism, tradition, the South Tyrolean world is transformed to make tourists feel good. With his atelier he wanted to give a personal, physical signal to the community. We, having understood this impulse, used the material of tradition, wood, but under a POP light: the structures are not just X coverings. The building appears simple, but structurally it is extraordinarily complex because it fits together like a plot, a network that works by twisting. I had to send two engineers away who said the building would not stand up and didn’t want to take responsibility. It is an immensely powerful project because it is weak: it is a classic architecture, a peristyle, a small temple, and it is very weak, because if you go around the base with a chainsaw everything collapses. It has the power of fragility, small but monumental, at the same time you understand that it is weak. The first sketches we made were of a nest, an inverted nest, the theme of functional duality, atelier and home. Two worlds, with its partner and two children. The last two small rooms at the top, which are not visible, not communicating, placed under a single roof, as if they lived in two separate worlds; then you descend and in the common area you get back together. It has a very intense internal story. It was wonderful to work with him because he experienced it as a part of his body, as an extension. Usually when you design buildings, you think about them quickly and then you have to put them up. He lived it just like he was growing another ear.
Sandy Attia: The plan is from Kahn’s Fischer House, so we know how to copy well! (laughs – editor’s note).
Matteo Scagnol: It’s a safe road (laughs – editor’s note)… we are not ashamed to say it. Returning to the initial speech, we have two different cultures and they have entered into symbiosis. We are in symbiosis and we have enriched each other; this is our advantage.
Sandy Attia: Having two heads also helps a lot, it gives you much more and it’s more fun. How do people who work on their own self-criticise?
Matteo Scagnol: No, no, I would be happy!
8. Can you tell us about the Sant’Andrea school complex?
Sandy Attia: The interesting thing about this project is that there are four functions combined: kindergarten, primary school, library and multipurpose gym. This is truly multipurpose, also used by external associations, by a theatre association and other active associations in this small town. For such a small town, it almost becomes a civic centre, the centre of life. The message is that school still has civic value. It may be trivial, but it is reality. It is a civic architecture, and as such, it has depth and a right to beauty. The other aspect is that of post-occupancy. We conducted a joint research with the University of Bressanone to understand how people, working within a space if they are happy, interface with the structure. It’s more of a process aspect, but as an architect it doesn’t often happen to go back to your building. Having this opportunity, I was able to go and monitor other architects’ buildings, to find out what people said: the complaints, what worked, what didn’t. It is remarkably interesting for buildings such as schools. This project has been very painful. The administration’s process was a long and difficult confrontation, but it was still greatly satisfyin, even if within a participatory process, in which it always seems that there are requests that the architect must follow because they are imposed; the reality is that you have to offer your idea which then ends up in the system with the whole project. There are pros and cons in this process.


9. Can you tell us about the psychiatric centre in Bolzano?
Sandy Attia: I am enormously proud of this project. It is the first contest that we won.
Matteo Scagnol: I’ll tell you starting from another anecdote; her father is Egyptian, she lived with me in Italy as “an illegal” (laughs – editor’s note), and practically, her father said, “You took my daughter away, how does it work?”. I understood that it was necessary to make an official engagement. I wrote him a formal letter requesting permission to marry his daughter in my so-so type English. “Okay, you can marry my daughter, but the engagement party will be in Oregon.” We had just consigned our entry in the competition, which we did in Rome in a kitchenette in an apartment in Trastevere, where we lived because Sandy was teaching in American schools abroad; imagine a kitchenette and a small computer, if you saw the tables you would laugh; that’s how it came about; with the competition entry delivered we took the plane and took off to get engaged with festoons and rings. I thought “I don’t even have a shirt to my name and now I’m getting engaged?” (laugh – editor’s note). On the day of the official engagement, in the midst of millions of relatives, my father from Italy calls me to say, “You won the competition!” And this was the marriage foundation for two architects (they laugh – editor’s note). The project was incredibly lucky and shows how architecture is able to absorb changes. In 2003 we won the competition; it was built ten years later and transformed from housing for the elderly to a psychiatric centre due to resistance to our architectural idea for the project, that is, to open and expand the internal space, a kind of protected internal stomach, with connecting bridges that were used structurally to support a crazy protrusion of the factory encasement of seven and a half metres. When you are under it, it seems to collapse on you. These bridges are tie rods that hold the two blocks together; but which also work for guests who do not walk and for whom we had thought of making circular routes; in the psychiatric ward it was necessary to create outdoor spaces for smoking and feeling protected; this is a delicate and difficult world, because it intertwines with the theme of suicide, of danger. We understood from this work that suicide is never blatant, you never do it when you are in the community, but you do it blatantly in a private way. For that there was great attention given to furniture, for example to have hanging elements that could only hold a few kilos. It was a beautiful job because we carried it forward in its entirety, always confronting ourselves with the usage that was extraordinary.
Sandy Attia: … also because there was always the same doctor, the same person of reference all these years; it was an added value. When I came back, I took a guided tour with him and saw how these therapy spaces are experienced. Full of elements, of activities; he said they think this psychiatric centre is a school for life.































